How many concurrent instruments can HAPAX separately control at once?

Hapax
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Hi everyone,

This is my first post! I’ve finally decided to get out of my 100% ITB setup and go DAWless (using the DAW as a multitrack recorder and to mix) via the HAPAX :mirror_ball:

There’s a similar post by [michaeljk1963], but I don’t want to hijack his thread with my questions so here goes:

Setup:

  • HAPAX as main sequencer
  • Novation Drum Station for drums
  • Novation Super Bass Station for bass
  • Waldorf Q rack for melodies, arps, chords, etc.
  • EMU Orbit v2 for additional loops and sounds
  • EMU Orbit 3 for additional loops and sounds
  • EMU Planet Earth for additional loops and sounds
  • EMU Mo Phatt for additional loops and sounds

Desired Outcome:

  • I want to use the HAPAX to program each instrument separately while having access to all sound source destinations at the same time (each sound source will have a direct input to my audio interface so I can record everything at once to edit and mix later)
  • Besides sequencing drum patterns and melodic notes, the HAPAX will (obviously) need to send MIDI clock information so the loops and arps from the Q & EMU boxes will be in sync

Questions:

  1. Can the HAPAX separately sequence all of my devices (seven in total) at the same time with its three MIDI din output ports?
  2. If so, how would I go about configuring the MIDI channel assignment?
  3. If not, how can I achieve this? :crossed_fingers:

Other:

  1. People have mentioned the MRCC and iconnectivity boxes in the aforementioned linked post. Is that something I need to explore further with my setup? If so, I like the MRCC for (perceived) simplicity and would love more info on using this for my dedicated setup.
  2. If the HAPAX can’t separately control all of these devices at the same time, what do you suggest? Should I just limit my production setup to three devices (drums, bass, and the Q or one of the EMU boxes) or would you get a second sequencer (either another HAPAX or something else) to sync to the HAPAX to sequence the remaining bits?
  3. At some future time, once I get everything sorted out and stabilized, I would like the ability to tweak the sound sources themselves and send that MIDI data back into HAPAX to store with their respective sequences. Is this when I would send MIDI out from 1 device to the THRU on the 2nd device to the THRU on all remaining devices to the MIDI in on the HAPAX?

Ok, this is getting very long. I really appreciate your help and advice, and look forward to being a part of this community.

Thank you so much.
Vinny

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Each Hapax project sends MIDI out over 16 separate tracks, though because Hapax can load dual projects simultaneously, you can technically control 32 tracks at once (but the more typical use is probably 16 for Proj. A and 16 for Proj. B so you can transition from one Project to another without play stopping). MIDI Out from Hapax can be routed to a Thru box to then pass 16/32 tracks’ MIDI data to however many channels a given Thru box allows. Then each Hapax track can be assigned to a given MIDI channel per device you want to sequence. Basically (Drum Tracks work slightly differently but mostly the same)

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You have 16 tracks, all can have different midi assignments. So yes, it can control all devices. - configure each track with appropriate output and on separate midi channels.

There’s 4 midi din , if you use the TRS adapter.
Beyond that’s you can use usb , or midi thru or splitters. You can also use more complex routers ( see my post in post you mentioned)

Sending data back to hapax you’d use either a router or midi merge , or indeed could daisy chain using midi thru.
Just be careful you don’t get midi feedback.

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Thanks for the response.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding MIDI Thru - as I thought this would send “thru” the same MIDI data to all connected devices rather than sending separate MIDI sequences to all connected devices.

Sounds like I only need one MIDI out from the HAPAX then. Am I on the right path here:

  • HAPAX MIDI 1 out to MIDI in on the MRCC
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 1 via MIDI channel 1
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 2 via MIDI channel 2
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 3 via MIDI channel 3
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 4 via MIDI channel 4
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 5 via MIDI channel 5
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 6 via MIDI channel 6
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 7 via MIDI channel 7

An alternate option would be:

  • HAPAX MIDI 1 out to instrument 1 via MIDI channel 1
  • HAPAX MIDI 2 out to instrument 2 via MIDI channel 2
  • HAPAX MIDI 3 out to MIDI in on the MRCC
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 3 via MIDI channel 3
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 4 via MIDI channel 4
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 5 via MIDI channel 5
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 6 via MIDI channel 6
  • MRCC MIDI out to instrument 7 via MIDI channel 7

If the Drum Station was MIDI channel 1, I’m assuming I would need to do something extra to separately trigger each of its drum sounds. Yes?

Thanks again!

5

Thank you @thetechnobear

I will check out your dedicated responses in the other thread for more info and eventually will look into a router or MIDI Merge box to send data back into the HAPAX.

I want to keep these technical configurations as simple as possible, and spend more time in HAPAX learning all of its creative tools.

Thanks again!

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I think my example was off by one. Maybe this is more accurate:

  • HAPAX MIDI 1 out to MIDI 1 in on the MRCC via MIDI channel 1
  • MRCC MIDI 1 out to instrument 1 via MIDI channel 2
  • MRCC MIDI 2 out to instrument 2 via MIDI channel 3
  • MRCC MIDI 3 out to instrument 3 via MIDI channel 4
  • MRCC MIDI 4 out to instrument 4 via MIDI channel 5
  • MRCC MIDI 5 out to instrument 5 via MIDI channel 6
  • MRCC MIDI 6 out to instrument 6 via MIDI channel 7
  • MRCC MIDI 7 out to instrument 7 via MIDI channel 8

An alternate option would be:

  • HAPAX MIDI 1 out to instrument 1 via MIDI channel 1
  • HAPAX MIDI 2 out to instrument 2 via MIDI channel 2
  • HAPAX MIDI 3 out to MIDI 1 in on the MRCC via MIDI channel 3
  • MRCC MIDI 1 out to instrument 3 via MIDI channel 4
  • MRCC MIDI 2 out to instrument 4 via MIDI channel 5
  • MRCC MIDI 3 out to instrument 5 via MIDI channel 6
  • MRCC MIDI 4 out to instrument 6 via MIDI channel 7
  • MRCC MIDI 5 out to instrument 7 via MIDI channel 8
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Taken from Kenton’s website:

MIDI Thru boxes take the signal coming from a single MIDI source and split it into a number of identical copies.

This is definitely not what I need unless the “identical copies” can be adjusted by assigning separate midi channels to each.

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A MIDI Thru will just duplicate the same information to all outputs, but so long as you’ve not got more than 16 instruments (or inputs on multiple MIDI channel input machines, such as some samplers and multitimbral instuments) then you should be fine.

I use 2 MIDI Solutions Thru boxes, one on output A and one on output B, and use that to sequence 12 different machines, and they are all set to separate MIDI channels and it works absolutely perfectly.

The only issue you might find with this, however, is if you’re sending a lot of MIDI information, such lots of high resolution CC data, as MIDI is a sequential protocol, meaning you only get one message being sent at any one time, so you can find there might be some latency if you’re pumping out loads of data. I’ve not noticed this since OS 1.04 (and the issues were internal to the Hapax) but I mostly use my Hapax for note data and some automation, I don’t do anything that heavy on that front.

I’m not sure how the MRCC handles this, as presumably the MIDI input on that will be the bottleneck in that case, but would probably help on any older equipment with slow CPUs (this is a guess)

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Hey @Loz, thanks for the response!

I use 2 MIDI Solutions Thru boxes, one on output A and one on output B, and use that to sequence 12 different machines, and they are all set to separate MIDI channels and it works absolutely perfectly.

Ok, this makes sense to me and gives me a sense of comfort.

The only issue you might find with this, however, is if you’re sending a lot of MIDI information, such lots of high resolution CC data, as MIDI is a sequential protocol, meaning you only get one message being sent at any one time, so you can find there might be some latency if you’re pumping out loads of data. I’ve not noticed this since OS 1.04 (and the issues were internal to the Hapax) but I mostly use my Hapax for note data and some automation, I don’t do anything that heavy on that front.

Good to know, thank you. I don’t foresee myself getting too crazy with automation via HAPAX, but that might be premature until I start using it. The usual filter cutoff sweeps, ADSR envelope changes, delay sends, etc. should suffice. I’m anticipating I would record a few “live passes” doing different things on each pass and then edit everything in the computer afterwards. Who knows, if I can eventually get to the point where I can do everything I’m used to doing ITB via the HAPAX, I will.

I’m not sure how the MRCC handles this, as presumably the MIDI input on that will be the bottleneck in that case, but would probably help on any older equipment with slow CPUs (this is a guess)

I think MIDI Solutions of Kenton can solve my initial use case rather than going for the MRCC. The only unknown is if I will eventually want/need to filter things out from the HAPAX when sending to the Q and/or EMU boxes to keep the arps from those boxes in tact. Either I will use the constraint as a creative advantage or will have to upgrade later to something like the MRCC if it becomes problematic with the MIDI Solutions or Kenton.

Thoughts?

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I don’t think you will. I don’t own any Waldorf or Emu gear, but all other synths I own put their arpeggios onto the notes playing, and usually clocks to master tempo. So if you send it long notes from the Hapax, it will play arpeggios around the notes you’re sending it.

The arp effect on the Hapax is on the track itself, so you could send it an arpeggiated chord which then the Emu would arpeggiate the result, which could be interesting or a mess, depending on what you wanted. But if you just send normal notes, the instrument will handle it from there.

With regard to CC automation, remember that that is also locked to a track/MIDI channel/MIDI port, so as long as everything is on its own channel, you will be fine.

One thing I do do, is I have all the instruments I want to be sent Transport messages on one output port, and the ones I don’t want to on the other. So stuff like my drum machines, my Nord Modular, etc is connected to Port A, but the stuff I don’t want to start when I press play on the Hapax (such as synths with terrible internal sequencers) is off Port B.

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I don’t think you will. I don’t own any Waldorf or Emu gear, but all other synths I own put their arpeggios onto the notes playing, and usually clocks to master tempo. So if you send it long notes from the Hapax, it will play arpeggios around the notes you’re sending it.

Ok cool and good to know. Note to self - enter long notes in the HAPAX and disable the arp to use the internal arp patterns from the external machines.

The arp effect on the Hapax is on the track itself, so you could send it an arpeggiated chord which then the Emu would arpeggiate the result, which could be interesting or a mess, depending on what you wanted. But if you just send normal notes, the instrument will handle it from there.

Yes! Like you said, either it will be cool or be too complicated. Will have to put this in practice to truly know.

With regard to CC automation, remember that that is also locked to a track/MIDI channel/MIDI port, so as long as everything is on its own channel, you will be fine.

Another good pointer. Regarding automation, I think I have to wait and put it into practice because it’s too difficult to theorize about it all without hearing what everything is doing.

One thing I do do, is I have all the instruments I want to be sent Transport messages on one output port, and the ones I don’t want to on the other. So stuff like my drum machines, my Nord Modular, etc is connected to Port A, but the stuff I don’t want to start when I press play on the Hapax (such as synths with terrible internal sequencers) is off Port B.

Slick. Nothing I currently own has an internal sequencer so I will have to program everything within the HAPAX. The only thing I have to figure out is how the internal arps on the Q, Super Bass Station, and EMU boxes interoperate with the HAPAX’s creative midi effects.

Thanks again. This is helping me piece everything together!

12

You don’t have to disable anything.The arp in the Hapax is a MIDI effect, so you have to specifically select it for that track.

This will be very easy to get your head around once you have the Hapax, but basically you have 16 columns, each is a track. Each track has a MIDI channel and output port (or CV/G) and anything on that track just goes to that channel or output port (strictly speaking there can be exceptions to this, but don’t worry about that now). So you have note data (+ velocity) on the Step page, and automation (including CCs) on another. If your automation is on Track 4, and that’s set to MIDI output port B and channel 4, then all of that information will only be sent out of port B, and will all be tagged as channel 4. Anything that is on a different channel will ignore it, and anything on a different port won’t even receive it.

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If the Drum Station was MIDI channel 1, I’m assuming I would need to do something extra to separately trigger each of its drum sounds. Yes?

any of the 16 Hapax Tracks can be a Drum Track, which allows you to assign eight instruments to specific MIDI notes and different MIDI channels per note. so that all eight could be different Drum Station voices, or discrete drum sounds on the other EMu boxes. Drum Tracks also have the advantage of allowing velocity ranges for each of the eight assigned instruments to be entered on the Hapax front panel array

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@DancingCats
so, i just googled all of your gear, and they all have midi thru, so you don’t NEED anything other than midi cables, and then configure them appropriately with the correct midi channels.

frankly, as a believer in KISS, id say, go with what you have, and then IF you find you need something else… then buy it later, as you’ll be more aware of your needs (*).

(something like the iconnectivity / mrcc will be best solution IF you need, but not worth adding complication at this stage imho - you’ll have enough on your hands with the hapax)

id also, for now, forget the feedback from device → hapax, as if you get this wrong, its going to cause you major headaches…
again walk before you run, esp. since this means you dont need to buy more gear at this time… so an easy add on for later… once you have the hapax and your gear singing.

as always, you’ll gain more on learning the hapax workflow, and how you want to make music with it, than trying to perfect the setup :wink: (as ive learnt the hard way !)

(*) yes, technically, it can be better to avoid midi thru.
the reality here is with 4 outputs and only 7 devices - you’d only be doing a single chain , so that’s not going to be an issue… and even if it were, a bit of thought about which to pair together, would highly likely resolve any issue.

15

As previous replies have stated, you can absolutely connect all the gear mentioned in a variety of ways. i myself have a Mo Phatt and look forward to seeing just how much further i can go using the Hapax than prior attempts with the Beatstep Pro, Squid, etc.

The oft maligned EMU ‘ROMplers’ are deceptively basic and ‘ROMply-like’ but underneath the cheesy 90s genre branding, there’s a lot of serious power well beyond the capabilities of many/most contemporary poly synth modules today, particularly in regard to their Midi capabilities.

but if i owned more E-MU modules i would not look forward to setting up four separate E-MU devices as part of my working setup. (lol actually that’s a lie. i would probably look forward to it, enjoy doing it, and suggest it’s an excellent workout if you’re into Midi endurance training,).

My point is not to discourage so that you use less…but to encourage so that you actually use all four. it’s possible to consolidate all four E-Mu’s (that is all four E-MU ROMs) into a single unit, which in your case would be the Orbit 3 (four internal ROM slots). maybe you’ve already considered this option, but if you haven’t yet, you should seriously look into the possibility - if for no reason other than curiosity (and perhaps your own sanity). either way, September couldn’t come any sooner.

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Thanks @Loz

I’ve been watching more YouTube demos and about to read the manual :nerd_face: so it’s starting to sink in. Your description on automation is clear, appreciate that.

I’m excited and nervous about doing automation in a new way vs. how I do it ITB today. I have a hunch I might have to let go of making it so “perfect” :speak_no_evil: but maybe that’ll help with creating the vibe I’m looking for.

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Thanks @chrisroland

I saw a YouTube video demonstrating how to draw in drum note velocity data and it seems straight forward and quick to do which was nice to see.

The one thing that I hope works well is splitting a E-MU drum kit into individual sounds that can be sequenced on the HAPAX. Supposedly you can strip elements away from the overall loops within the E-MU boxes so I’m also interested in that approach - using the HAPAX to trigger a stripped down loop and then combining that loop with other stripped down loops from the other E-MU boxes. That’s essentially how I create my rhythm section today with the addition of ghost notes and edits.

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Thanks @thetechnobear

so, i just googled all of your gear, and they all have midi thru, so you don’t NEED anything other than midi cables, and then configure them appropriately with the correct midi channels.

frankly, as a believer in KISS, id say, go with what you have, and then IF you find you need something else… then buy it later, as you’ll be more aware of your needs (*).

I’m all about KISS, and I agree, if I can’t get everything to work I can always add to the setup later. It’s almost like taking a MVP approach- understand the true use case, figure out what works and what doesn’t, and then find a solution at that point.

id also, for now, forget the feedback from device → hapax, as if you get this wrong, its going to cause you major headaches…
again walk before you run, esp. since this means you dont need to buy more gear at this time… so an easy add on for later… once you have the hapax and your gear singing.

:100:

as always, you’ll gain more on learning the hapax workflow, and how you want to make music with it, than trying to perfect the setup :wink: (as ive learnt the hard way !)

Yes, exactly. I omitted this from my initial post, but I’m going back to an OTB setup after I swore I never would again lol. I’m hoping this time around the differentiating factors are using an external sequencer and multi-track recording everything at once rather than each channel one at a time and dealing with the latency drudgery that ruins your groove and ultimately your entire session. :pray: :crossed_fingers:

(*) yes, technically, it can be better to avoid midi thru.
the reality here is with 4 outputs and only 7 devices - you’d only be doing a single chain , so that’s not going to be an issue… and even if it were, a bit of thought about which to pair together, would highly likely resolve any issue.

My only concern with the daisy chain route is how it would most likely introduce delay. One option I’m considering is just using four instruments as a form of creative constraint. For example, the Drum Station for drums, the Bass Station for bass, the Q for chords/pads/melody, and just one of the E-MU boxes for whatever speaks to me during the song writing process (more drums, an arp, another lead to counter point the Q, fx, etc.). Then I would just cycle through the E-MU boxes after each track or each EP. Now that I’m writing this all out, this sounds like the most pragmatic approach to start things off.

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19

Thanks @matt_positive

The oft maligned EMU ‘ROMplers’ are deceptively basic and ‘ROMply-like’ but underneath the cheesy 90s genre branding, there’s a lot of serious power well beyond the capabilities of many/most contemporary poly synth modules today, particularly in regard to their Midi capabilities.

I found a bunch of mint units so decided to just get them all as a collection. Admittedly, I splurged.

but if i owned more E-MU modules i would not look forward to setting up four separate E-MU devices as part of my working setup. (lol actually that’s a lie. i would probably look forward to it, enjoy doing it, and suggest it’s an excellent workout if you’re into Midi endurance training,).

My point is not to discourage so that you use less…but to encourage so that you actually use all four. it’s possible to consolidate all four E-Mu’s (that is all four E-MU ROMs) into a single unit, which in your case would be the Orbit 3 (four internal ROM slots). maybe you’ve already considered this option, but if you haven’t yet, you should seriously look into the possibility - if for no reason other than curiosity (and perhaps your own sanity). either way, September couldn’t come any sooner.

Trust me, I already feel overwhelmed with all of these sounds, but this will be my entire setup for creating music.

Adding all the expansions to the Orbit would be a good idea if I already exhausted all of the modules and just wanted to keep one box with ALL the sounds. But, I wouldn’t be able to layer drums/sounds from multiple sound banks at once to create the foundation of a track to then mix later ITB. Plus, I don’t think I would be able to sell the physical unit without the original sound bank in there and finding the dedicated eproms to add in later will be hard to source, and cost more money. Having said that, it would be nice to just have the Drum Station, Bass Station, and Orbit sitting in front of the HAPAX and know that IS IT.

By the way, in hind sight I wish I spent the extra money on the Turbo Phatt to get the S/PDIF out instead of the Mo Phatt. Folks on synth finder have mentioned that you loose the high-end if you use the analog outputs instead of the digital S/PDIF output. Have you noticed that on your Mo Phatt unit?

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I just placed my order… thanks for all of your input!

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