Help me understand project transitions / potential / constraints

Let’s say for example your trying to play a live hardware set.

I don’t see how you would transition between two projects unless you were using the same destination kits/program voices etc.

For example, if I have a Tr8s with an 808 kit loaded for my first project; and on my second I want to have the 909 kit playing, how does hapax differentiate the two unless you just had two separate machines that you could manually change projects/kits/patterns for every new song?

Same with synth patches. Unless you want to use the same patch, how would you transition into a new song with the same synth?

Hopefully this makes sense.

can the TR-8 assign unique MIDI note values to each instrument sound? assuming both Project A and Project B designate Track/Ch. 10 as the Drum Track, for example, mapping the 808 kit sounds to one octave and the 909 kit to a different octave, you can transition between projects while retaining the same MIDI channel settings for Track 10 across either Project (only the note values will change to trigger different sounds on the TR-8)

I believe only 11 sound channels regardless of what midi.

I guess you could split the drum machine, but than your left with only utilizing 5/6 drum tracks in a hapax pattern.

Even in doing so, it doesn’t fix the “issue” of having to program change to a new kit or synth while the out going one is still in use.

don’t have a TR-8S myself so I don’t know exactly how it handles MIDI implementation for different kits but taking a quick look at loopop’s review, it seems that there are 11 “tracks” which, if each track can be assigned to a unique MIDI channel, shouldn’t it be as simple as putting your 808 kit on Track [X] and your 909 kit on Track [Y].

so then with Hapax, any given Project would have corresponding Drum Tracks set to MIDI channel [X] if it’s a song you want to trigger the 808 kit, or channel [Y] if you want to trigger the 909 sounds? which would have the advantage of allowing you to incorporate both on a given Project if you wanted to (though at the expense of dedicating two of Hapax’s 16 tracks to two different drum kits)

I suppose the question remains how would you switch from the 808/909 kits then without needing to eventually also change the patterns for new kits to be played.

Also the same situation with a synth preset. Let’s say you have a Moog Minotaur running patch 1 on project 1, on project 2 the Moog is on patch 2, how’s that go?

This question I guess was less about the Tr8s and just more about any general ideas on how to use the same drum machine or synth between two projects for an extended set.

1 Like

again, don’t have a TR-8S but if Track/Ch 10 is all 808 sounds (and only 808 sounds) any Hapax Project that you assign the corresponding Track/Ch 10 to will always trigger the TR’s 808 kit. if you similarly dedicate Track/Ch 11 on the TR and Hapax to 909 sounds, I don’t understand why there would be any need for “switching” or program changes, unless TR-8S works differently than I’m imagining.

are you saying only one drum kit can be playing on the TR at a time? (which feels like it would be contrary to having 11 separate tracks for different things, unless each track only plays a single drum sound within a given kit)

The Tr8s cannot have more than 11 trigger-able midi notes per kit. Each note is a trigger tied to one of the 11 sounds. You cannot from my knowledge assign a bunch of kits the whole way up a midi keyboard like you can on ableton.

I am a bit confused as to what you are trying to achieve with the ‘transition’

If you mean like mixing one record into another, then that won’t work, as you’ll be limited to the gear that is playing, unless it can morph between sounds (Polybrute is the only one I’m aware of, and I don’t really know how it works in practice, just that it sounds cool)

Here’s how it works in my head:

Say you have a Hapax, TR8S, JU-06A, and SH-01A.
Project A is playing an 808 kit from the TR, some chords on the JU and a bassline on the SH. Project B is playing nothing.
You mute the SH bassline on A and unmute on B, so it switches to the pattern of the second track. You then do the same for the JU chords, and finally a bit later, switch the drums from Project A to B. Then you’re ‘transitioned’

Of course, you don’t have to mute one pattern before unmuting the other, but depending on the patterns, it can be a mess. Although, with drum tracks, you could mute the hihats for example on Project A, and unmute them on Project B, and so forth, giving you a hybrid pattern. I’ve not ever tried this, so not sure how practical that would be, but it would be possible.

You mention having the same sounds, I think with the TR8S you are limited to the sounds just in one pattern on the TR, right? You could presumably swap them live on the TR itself, but I’m imagining that’s probably not ideal in a live situation. You’re more likely just going to have to switch all the sounds at once.

For the synths, if you wanted to change pattern and sound at the same time, then you could either change patch on the machine manually, or use the Program Change message. Each Pattern on the Hapax can have its own PC message, which is sent out when it’s engaged, which will automatically change to the patch number in the target synth. I don’t think this actually kicks in on an unmute (I could be wrong) but a workaround for that is there is a PC lane in the Automation, and you can just set that up to your patch number, which will transmit on an unmute (which is how I used Program Changes on the Pyramid). I would imagine you could change the sounds on the TR with a PC message as well, although I have never had one so not 100%.

Hope this helps, if anything is unclear, I’ll try to clear it up for you.

as others have said… the Hapax can’t add abilities that your synthesisers/groovebox/drum machines don’t have… (nor can any sequencer)

the idea of projects and transitions, is to give a means to transition within those constraints.
the ability to run both projects at the same times, means you can mute and mutate patterns across the projects - to make that transition feel good.

so if your tr8 cannot play both 808 and 909 at the same time… then Hapax can’t make it do that :wink:

however, it would allow a way for you to creatively transition.
that might mean keep parts of project A playing, muting 808, perhaps bring parts of the 909 in, then slowly bringing in more of project B.

this is just ONE way of doing a transition, as there’s also techniques using automation etc… many creative possibilities, that are there for the musician to think about, and decide what fits their style or the tracks best.

I guess what Im saying, whilst there is no ‘magic’ solution here… it enables you think creatively about how to move from one project to the next, my ‘mixing’ elements… aka a transition, rather than just play A then abruptly switching to B.

of course, this may not be suitable for all use-cases… or your style of music/tracks.

if you need your tr8 to be playing both 808 and 909 at the same time, and it doesn’t have that ability , then either you

  • need two tr8s
  • use something like a looper, loop the 808 whilst, the tr8 switches

of course, you’ll still need some mixing abilities on top of this.

that’s actually why I like my Octatrack so much…
midi sequencers are great within the constraints of your synths abilities.
but the Octatrack means you have a way of looping and transitioning at the audio levels.

neither is better, and in many ways are complimentary.

though Id say, transitioning via the Hapax, where possible is much less ‘finicky’ that doing it with the Octatrack, which requires a bit of practice :wink:

tl;dr; so as for your title, potential/constraints

allow two different projects setups, which can be run at the same time… which you can mute/modulate parts of to transition between tracks

the reason this is ‘more useful’ that just having one mega projects.
is that each track is self contained, so the are not predefining the order in which projects are played.

you cannot do more than your synths/groovebox etc allows - so you cannot make a montimbral synth , multi-timbral.

this means, you either have to ‘modulate’ it for the transition, or start muting/switching out parts/patterns to transition.

so this creates some limitation as to how you do transitions, and does mean you need to think about it in advance, and prep the projects appropriately.

note: its alway worth investigating how a change of BPM is done whilst you are transitioning projects… as this similarly impacts how you transition.
e.g. you cannot just suddenly switch BPM between projects
(well you can, but its probably going to sound a bit meh)

in a similar way… usually, you’ll use project A bpm, and then bring in B… but at As bpm, and then decide how you want to get to B’s true bpm.
e.g. sudden jump? or slowly increase it.
that’s your creative decision.

also, you may find that your drum machines (etc) may have certain ‘requirements’ or work better about changes in clock (e.g. settling into the new bpm, may take a short time) … this is down to limitations of those devices, and midi.

Thank you for this. It’s kind of what I figured (hapax can’t change the machines functions), I just wanted to clarify the limitations.

Another question do I I have is the ability to use an external keyboard for note input or previewing.

Can you assign the 8 track digitakt to one lane (instead of 8) and sequence notes effectively with the keyboard, or are you stuck using 8 patterns to be able to control the digitakt with independent pitch controls on each channel.

the new updated firmware to the TR-8S sounds like it might get you closer to being able to switch different kits on the fly, FWIW

1 Like