Program and Bank Change


#1

Hello,
since there are only three threads on this topic, maybe someone can give me a helping hand.

I am trying to send Program and Bank Changes to my Waldorf Pulse 2. This works from the track settings, I set PC to 61 MSB 0 LSB 4 (which creates the corresponding commands on step one of the track). No problem so far. When I use a single step in a track I am able to send a Program Change like: Sound dialed in: 461 (like set in track config), then I send Program Change 60, sound changes to 460. Good.

But now I want to change the Bank… This does not work, because the Bank Change does seem to get send more than once for a track, ie only the first Bank Change will be send. On a single step I set CC#0 to 0 CC#32 to 2 PC to 30 and the patch does not go to 230 but to 430. The Bank just does not change, because the midi command does not seem to get sent. Playing around with multiple random values on these three params (CC LSB, CC MSB, Prg Change) does not end in my desired result.

Long story short: It seems one cant change the Bank in a track more than once.

Does anybody know this behavior? Is it intentional? Is it a bug? I found something in the release notes history that says that Prg Change only get send at the start of a track, but this seems not so because I can change the Program but not the Bank.

Thanks,
jingo

(and please admins, put a proper SSL-Cert on your forum, its like 30 mins of work (max), atm I just use some shitty 0815 pw which I dont care when its compromised…)


#2

I ran into something similar awhile back sending Bank Changes to an Octatrack. I forget what i discerned from that, but i havent needed more than one bank…yet.

Have you tried putting the Pgm Chg on a step after the Bank Change? I think Pgm Chg commands tend to send before CC, but i may be totes out to lunch on that one.


#3

That’s a good shout @CreepyPants.

Some synths will want MSB then LSB then PC one after the other in order to switch banks and PC.

@jingo try changing the zoom on your track and putting these events on ‘microsteps’ to action your bank change.

Also the MSB, LSB, PC values you have set at track level are likely to override whatever you programme at event level, so try switching those off and programming all your changes on steps or in patterns rather than in track parameters. Anything at track level is going to get resent every time a track or pattern is unmuted or otherwise launched and will trump whatever you have programmed on a step… I think…

Or at least baffle your receiving synth.

jim


#4

Thanks for your fast answers. Yes I tried sending commands on different steps and yes I did not configure on track level. “Funny thing” is that if you configure you LSB MSB Prg manually on any step it will show up in track config as if you had set those there.

For now I will copy all my needed patches into one bank and use the working Prg Change.

Maybe there will be a “real” solution at a later time…

thank you,
jingo


#5

Hi Jingo and All,

I have something that could be similar for any PyraOS I have tested. I was thinking that this failure comes from my KAWAI MP7 keyboard and never take time to fix this bug ?!

Description of my systematic failure mode :

When I choose MSB=95, the instrument selected is only OK once. If you change PC or LSB, then it fails and come back always to the same value ( i did not search wich one, but not the one I wanted). In consequence, I never use instruments of my KAWAI MP7 with MSB=95 ?!!

When I use MSB=121, I have no problem, I can change PCor LSB as many times as I want. I only use this list of instruments with MSB=121 !!

Do you think that this may come from the Pyramid ?

Many thanks for helping me because this is a major problem for me…


#6

Greetings @Aloa

Sounds extremely frustrating indeed.

I’d suggest breaking down the communication issues to 3 parts:
Sending
Carrying the Signal
Receiving

On sending, try using a MIDI monitor to verify that the Pyramid is sending the correct MIDI data. I use MIDI Ox sometimes, other times I just use a software sequencer to record Events and then scroll through them on the Event Editor. Are you using the Track options to set the MSB/LSB & Pgm, or creating CC events? If you haven’t tried both techniques, try them both independently.

On carrying the signal: have you tried different MIDI Cables? Are you using USB and if so: is it going through a hub? (note: remove all possible extraneous elements from your troubleshooting procedure)

Receiving: Is the receiving device acting as expected when it receives the verifiably correct MIDI data from a different source, ie try sending the same data from a different device/source. Also: are you running the latest OS on the MP7? (A quick scan of the OS release notes for the MP7 indicate there was possibly a related issue pre OS v1.10, but that’s a quick scan only and probably a moot point)

That should get you started, or at least may bring some info to light until someone has a more educated response.

In revisiting this issue in my own rig I think I remember my issue with the Pyramid sending MSB/LSB: When the Bank, or, say, just the MSB, does not change, the Pyramid does not send the new bank info. My receiving device at the time required the Bank AND PgmChg msg to select the correct combination, if I remember correctly. (I can search back in my notes to verify my exact issues and steps to resolve, but I have a stable workaround and not looking to resolve anything on my own rig on this issue)


#7

It’s like you say in your last paragraph, the Pyramid skips the changes as soon as you sent them twice in a track.

jingo


#8

Actually, it was more (precisely) that “if the MSB & LSB values have not changed, they are not re-sent”.

In my case, i needed the MSB/LSB sent irrespective of the current value/previously sent value.

It’s an appropriate interpretation by the OS, though rather annoying: art and parcel to the culture of “making things easy by insulating the user from the technical stuff” which i find extremely frustrating. With medication and patience from my therapist, im working through those issues. LOL

But things always work better with a MIDI Translator, IMO. :wink:


#9

Silly question:
Are you set up to transmit MIDI Out + Thru?
This has made a world of improvement for me sending CC data to the Octatrack.

I also find the architecture of the program change to be strange.
If it’s been sent, it is not sent again behavior makes things nice for looping tracks with program changes in them. It’s handy not to reset the track’s patch at the 1 every time. That has been a fatal flaw in many synths.

However, it doesn’t help one bit when the change either hasn’t been received, or isn’t transmitted properly for whatever reason.

The chrome plastic standard for good behavior in this area has always been the horrible and unreliable Alesis MMT-8. The user can step input bank data, change data, and it sends like a champ, and then upon looping there doesn’t appear to be any glitch or hiccup in the sound. Not sure what Alesis knew about this in the 80’s that we have forgotten, but it only failed when the track wasn’t enabled just before or exactly on the 1 (user error.)

With the pyramid I find that I am periodically stopping, and starting again just to get the program changes through, or I just bail on them and go and start creating the patches myself and forget all about automation.

I wonder if there isn’t a better way to approach this often convoluted, or poor performing part of the midi protocol?